Jesus Christ Superstar
My Son, Drew, is rapidly becoming quite the Andrew Lloyd Webber Fan. . .WE bought him an anthology for Xmas. . .and some of the songs he became quite intrigued by were the songs from Jesus Christ Superstar. This propted us to go out and by THIS version on DVD. I had seen this version sometime ago, around 2001, and really enjoyed it, but I had not been able to REALLY watch it with more than a casual attentiveness. WE had "Movie Night" last night and watched the entire DVD, giving me a chance to really absorb the movie.
Now, I must admit, that I have not watched JCS in it's entirety since my days in the church of Christ (and that was the 1973 version with Ted Neely and Evonne Elliman), and so had not followed the story without the conservative religious filter. It was interesting to watch it now through the eyes of a skeptic. . .being one who, at least religiously, feels like I have more questions than answers. Take for example, the lyrics for the song "Superstar". . .at the climax of the film:
Every time I look at you
I don't understand
Why you let the things you did
Get so out of hand
You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?
If you'd come today
You could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong, now
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong, now
Don't you get me wrong
Only want to know
Only want to know
Only want to know, now
Only want to know
Only want to know
Only want to know
Only want to know, now
Only want to know
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
Tell me what you think
About your friends at the top
Now who d'you think besides yourself
Was the pick of the crop?
Buddah was he where it's at?
Is he where you are?
Could Muhammmed move a mountain
Or was that just PR?
Did you mean to die like that?
Was that a mistake or
Did you know your messy death
Would be a record breaker?
Don't you get me wrong Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong, now Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong, now Don't you get me wrong
Only want to know Only want to know
Only want to know, now Only want to know
Only want to know Only want to know
Only want to know, now I only want to know
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ
Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
Jesus Christ
Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?
The song is sung by the character of Judas Iscariot, Jesus's betrayer, and the musical itself is the Passion as told from the veiwpoint of Judas. I have to admit, however, that Lyricist Tim Rice, using the voice of Judas, asks many questions that I find myself asking: "Who are you?" of Jesus. Having rejected the traditional fundamentalist theology I was raised with, I have come to look at the Bible critically. . .Without having the fundamental faith that the Christian relies on to fill in the holes that the Bible leaves, I am indeed left with MAY questions about Jesus. Was he indeed what he claimed to be? Was he a philosopher/prophet that was turned into an idol by his followers after his Death? Is he simply a mythological construct. . .a fictional character that has resulted from the culmination of pagan and jewish systems of faith?
Now before my Christian readers take issue. . .before the apologists get ahold of me and derail my entire point, let me say that I have read the internal and external sources that attest to the existance of Jesus as a historical figure. . .I have also read the criticisms of these sources, and for me, the jury is still out. . .I, a former student of the Bible and one with a fair understanding of textual criticism, remain unconvinced of the inerrency of the Bible OR the historical witnesses (many of which simply attest to REPORTS of Jesus or reports of the advent of Christianity. . .others remain suspect due to the fact that the records were primarily maintained by the Vatican for approximately a thousand years). Again, this is NOT an invitation to debate the inerrancy of the Bible or the extrascriptural texts. . .
I guess what struck me was Judas' Questions. . ."Who are you, what have you sacrificed?", "why did you pick such a backward time and such a strange land?" "Did you MEAN to die like that?" "Did you know that your messy death would be a record breaker?"
I think for me, the FACTS of it all remain irrelevant. . .unless some greater revelation comes along, I am going to continue to have more questions than answers. . .Acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God is, and always has been a matter of faith. . .faith that I apparently lack. I prefer to think of Jesus in the terms that my friend Jacki, a former member of the church of Christ who has been a Muslim for many years. Jacki said "Jesus took his hand and pointed to God. Christians worship the hand that pointed, rather than God that it pointed to. Look at the words of Jesus and you WILL see God."
I think I agree with that. . .whatever Jesus was, if the specifics of preserving all of the details and "proofs" was so important, he COULD have come at a time when the methods of preserving all of the thou shalts and thou shalt nots was not so higgledy-piggledy.
"Now, Don't you get me wrong". I have no disrespect for Christians that are living their faith. . .in fact I have nothing but honor and respect for them. . .It is simply that i have the questions. . .the questions will not go away. . .
Who are you, what have you sacrificed?
posted by Thomas J. at 1/05/2006 05:30:00 PM
16 Comments:
I'm going to have to challenge part of what you said:
"Now, Don't you get me wrong". I have no disrespect for Christians that are living their faith. . .in fact I have nothing but honor and respect for them. . ."
But you also said that you agreed with:
"Jesus took his hand and pointed to God. Christians worship the hand that pointed, rather than God that it pointed to."
As I Christian, I find that statement very disrespectful, and have a hard time finding anything honorable about it.
You can't have it both ways.
Once again, I will say that it all comes down to faith...just like you said.
Please do not judge my faith, or my worship by offering such disrespect by saying that Christians worship the hand that points to God rather than God Himself.
Such blanket statements are not only disrespectful, but they are also a huge display of ignorance on your part, because you don't know who, how, or what I (as a Christian) worship.
Okay, yes, you struck a nerve. I mean no disrespect to you or your faith (or admittedly your lack of faith), I am simply asking you for 2 things...
1. Clarity in your position
2. Respect for mine
for me it is about not "knowing". . .i understand totally where you are coming from. . .you have "faith" that fills in the gaps. . .where does that faith COME from? Knowledge? a conscious choice? A "need" to believe? A conclusion based on accumulated evidence?
Again, i am echoing the question that Rice and Webber using the voice of Judas. . .After all of my learning and study. . .combined with deliberation, prayer, meditation. . .there is alot of it that just doesn't make sense to me.
Again, This is not an attack on YOU. . .it doesn't have to be black or white. . .and my "lack of faith" in certain things is NOT an attack on you. . .there are times i wish i could just "have that faith", but I don't. . .it is not a choice, or stubbornness. . .it is very simply having looked at the info long and hard, and drawing different conclusions (or rather, not being able to draw the SAME conclusions that i used to)
So, rather than getting offended, help me to understand how YOU answer the questions that Judas asks in JCS.
For clarification's sake, I am not angry. I just think that the post contradicts itself, and the comment that your friend Jacki made (that you ageed with) was unfair. Seriously-I am not angry.
I have faith because I know myself. I know that I am one of the weakest people that I know. I have faith because in spite of my biggest efforts, and my best intentions, I fail miserably....A LOT. I have faith in God because I am not able to logically take credit for my life, my survival, and my blessings.
I have been through a lot in my life. I whole-heartedly believe that I could not have acheived any of these things on my own. Now, we can assume that I had some help from those around me, and I will agree with that. But there is no person that could ever heal my brokenness, clear out the rottenness inside of me, or rescue me the way that I have been rescued over and over. It would be very arrogant to say/believe that I accomplished that on my own, or with the help of a good therapist. I have faith because of the miracles in my life.
I believe in God because I believe in Satan. I have faith because I believe in hope and grace and love and peace and forgiveness and healing, and......none of those things come with instruction manuals. You can't just wake up one day and say, "I think that I will find peace with the past, and move on...." It just doesn't work that way.
It comes from something MUCH bigger than me!
Yeah, i TOTALLY understand what you are saying. . .i think that the transforming power that you are speaking of. . .that YOU have experienced IS of a divine nature. . ."supernatural" as it were. . .this is precisely why I remain a believer and not an athiest. . .i feel that same transformng power. . .i feel that same strength and blessing in my life. . .
For me, however, there is a HUGE chasm between THAT place of faith and a system of doctine. . .You and I agree that we beleive in "Something". . .you name that something as Christ and frame it in a Christian paradigm. . .My friend Jacki sees that transforming powers in the "truth" of Islam. . .another person may see it in the forces of nature and in the guise of gods older than history. . .For me, the difficulty that I have is trying to lay a rigid definition on that "Something" On what you and I call "God". . .
Again. . .for me, as a student, there is the difficulty that I have bridging that gap. . .you say that gap is bridged with "faith". . .how does one decide on an object of faith? Christ? Allah? Mother Earth?
That is what I just don't Know. . .that is why i have trouble with it all.
Oh. . and let me clarify. . .
I quote my friend Jacki to point out that I beleive that there IS divinity in the Message of Christ. . .the concept of sacrifice, redemption, unconditional love, overcoming adversity. While I remain unconvinced of all of the theology behind christianity, the ESSENCE of the words of Jesus are, to me, FULL of truth. . .does that mean that I accept everything written by every scriptural writer and reject everything else? No, that is where I remain unconvinced.
again. . .this is where the questions still lie for me.
How does one choose "what" or "whom" he believes in? That is the question, right?
I think anyone who is honest will say that part of that choice comes from what we "know." I have very little experience with "allah" or "the mother earth" therories, so it is not likely that I would put much stock in either of those. Secondly, faith comes from what makes sense to you logically, and what makes sense to you emotionally, and what makes sense to you on a spiritual level. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONE PATH- I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ONE GOD. I believe in the Bible. I believe in the Holy Spirit... I believe in Jesus Christ....I know those things and they make sense to me more than any of the other avenues that I have explored. Now, granted, I haven't explored them all.... but what I have in my faith in Christ works for me... my purpose... my family... and my ultimate goals. Why would I leave that? If it aint broke, dont fix it! I don't have it all figured out- I never will. But what I do know is this... I don't have to have it all figured out because I am saved by grace!
If you are searching for faith- truly searching... you will find it.
yes. . .that IS precisely the question. . .
and my writing was not intended to persuade YOU or ANYONE to leave their faith system. . .
The movie, and listening to the song "Superstar" really helped me to articulate some of the reasons that i have difficulty considering myself a "christian", in spite of the truth i find in the message of Jesus.
i guess you hit it on the head. . .that ALOT of what we believe is based on what makes sense to us as individuals. . .precisely why i have respect for those who live their faith. . .why i respect YOU for what you beleive, even though i may not share that beleif. Again, YOUR testimony stand as more evidence of God than a thousand Bibles. . .the transforming powers in our lives.
I merely am vocalizing the questions I still have. . .towards Christianity in particular, it having been the faith system I have left. . .but in general too. . .my friends of other faith systems (or lack thereof) experience similar dynamics with me in that I remain unconvinced of any of them as a whole, but find things that resonate to me in MANY of them.
I DO appreciate your validation of the "many paths" idea as well!
Good comments here; thought I'd toss in my own current perspective.
I think anyone who honestly examines the arguments has to admit that there's a possibility of God. Only hardline athiests argue against that. Most of the arguments that Christian apologists post are rooted in that area. They use them to defend _their_ God, but it's just as applicable to Allah, Krishna or a space alien - any sufficiently powerful force that had a hand in creating/guiding humanity.
Frankly, that tends to leave only the sacred texts that differentiate belief. So a Christian has to demonstrate that there is something so special about the Bible that it bears the signature of God - to the exclusion of other sacred texts.
Many try to validate the Bible by showing its historical accuracy and the preservation of text. However, that only proves that the text has survived relatively unaltered, not that its contents are true. The Iliad has similar (but slightly inferior) textual validity, but it is regarded as myth, not truth. It could be possible that the Bible is simply very well preserved folklore and developing myth.
For many years, I felt the Bible proved that through a combination of otherworldly harmony, demonstrated prophecies and extraordinary preservation. But when I discovered errors and inconsistancies I could not deny, I began to read it more critically. Increasingly I find that it reads less like the construct of a perfect being, and more a cultural/national religion with its own evolution and inconsistancies.
Which makes more sense:
a)a God that felt it necessary to set up a single man to fall, then spread a scheme of redemption over several thousand years in various stages of roll-out, admitting the imperfections in all the initial trials before eventually offering him a promise of forgiveness around 6000 years later? Who changed it so radically from one incarnation to another that its staunchest proponents didn't recognize it? And in doing so, somehow discounted 90% of the world population as not being worthy of being in the picture?
b) an invented God that was originally a figure of legend around the campfire, becoming a nationalistic god that was happy when they won and angry when they lost, becoming a moral force when the last vestiges of national spirit were broken?
Read the OT and see if there are any hints of the Messiah being anything other than a military conqueror, NT authors' "reinterpretation" nonwithstanding.
a) a God who manages to include in his definition of perfect love genocide, infanticide, self-mutilation and human sacrifice?
b) an god figure invented to motivate a nation by its leaders?
How does the unchanging God somehow see baby killing as necessary and good in one frame and in the next hating your brother to be tantamount to murdering him? How does the God who is no respecter of persons let guys like David and Aaron's surviving sons flaunt the rules when others were killed immediately for doing so? How does the God who sees fit that a man's family die with him for his sin later discount that notion through Jesus himself?
Concerning prophecy - no scholar will debate that the Penteteuch was written well after its time in history - likely by several authors. Prophecy is not hard to demonstrate if you're writing past, present and future at the same time.
Torah as Messianic prophecy? Use a study Bible and actually read the context of what the NT authors said pointed to Jesus. It reads much more like they found events in Jesus' life that had some similarity to completely unrelated passages and tied the two together. Much like in modern times slavery, bigotry and sexism has been justified by out of context verses.
Preservation of the text? Its harmony is not as unbelievable when you understand that first the Jews, then the Christians went through a weeding process that eliminated every writing of the time that deviated from the accepted mainline and flagged them as noncanonical. Or that it was co-opted by the powerful Roman empire and held up as a symbol of unity. And that it was kept out of meddling hands by the Catholic church for hundreds of years. And how about the 20 some odd books of the OT that are referred to in canonized books that we have no record of today? Not to mention what was the rationale for keeping the word from the common man for hundreds of years while the church hierarchy broke every rule in the book.
And what about miracles? They are supposedly the cornerstone of the early faith, and miraculous gifts were promised to disciples who believed. We rationalize about them "going away" when they became unnecessary, but a) how are they less necessary for proof of truth in today's fractured religious environment and b) the Bible never actually says they'll go away before heaven.
Maybe the biggest tell is in Jesus' own statement "by their fruit ye shall know them". Yes, it's shoddy logic to pull out one bad example for comparison. But consider the gamut of Christian accomplishments - the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch trials, televangelists, abuses of power, sexual deviance within the ranks. The nationalistic wars waged on a pretext of Christian holiness. Joel Olsteen preaches a ministry of personal wealth to a congregation of 30,000 weekly in a converted Superdome with its own coffeeshops and restaurants, while the homeless sleep on grates two blocks down. The most highly regarded Christian role models of the day are not servants, but TV stars, singers and bestselling authors. The Saviour that claimed no place to rest his head now has luxury bookstores on every corner with his own stamped mints, display Bibles and inspirational koosh balls. After a while, you begin to wonder exactly which tree it fell from.
You can "feel" you're right or that you're led by voices or your conscience or whatever all day long. So did Charles Manson. So did Jim Jones. So did Hitler. So did Pol Pot. In the end, your faith needs to be validated somewhere if it's to be declared absolute truth. For Christians, that's necessarily the Bible.
The alternative is to recognize that many schools of religious thought have an imperfect idea of God, and if it were so important to follow a system He might have chosen to make the correct system more obvious.
Oh, Bill. . .you said SO much more eloquently so much of what I believe. . .why I am a skeptic in fact at all is because of MANY of these things (MOST of these things).
I particularly like your LAST statement:
"The alternative is to recognize that many schools of religious thought have an imperfect idea of God, and if it were so important to follow a system He might have chosen to make the correct system more obvious."
I think, for ME, that is the key. . .i think the very presence of the imperfect schools of religious thought, and the absence of a perfect one, are evidence that God does NOT think it so important to have a "system".
When Anonymous and I concluded our discussion via emaila last night, she encouraged me to "keep seeking". I think THAT is the key. . .the seeking, NOT the finding.
Some Fundamentalists and born again Christians used to wear Buttons back in the 70's (here I am dating myself), obviously in reaction to the experimentation and searching of the late 60's, that said, very simply "I Found IT".
Dangerous place to be. in my humble opinion. . .once you think you HAVE the answers, you stop looking for them, and then close your ears and eyes to what God may be trying to show you.
Damn, you need to move to Atlanta.
Heh heh. My roots are pretty well set at this point :)
"in my humble opinion. . .once you think you HAVE the answers, you stop looking for them, and then close your ears and eyes to what God may be trying to show you..."
Probably one of the wisest things I have ever heard you say.
AGREED 100%.... no 150%.
Thomas, take a look at http://www.geocities.com/metagetics when you get a chance. If you can discount the frequent spelling errors, this guy has some interesting responses. I haven't digested it fully, but there are definitely some things there that might cause me to recant some of my previous statements.
Wow, I’ve been quoted! Actually, the quote isn’t my own, but something that I read somewhere and agreed with.
Anonymous, please do not be offended by the quote, it certainly isn’t meant as an insult. Rather, it is a description of how I view the belief in the divinity of Jesus(p). For me, the quote metaphorically explains what I understand to have happened with the message that Jesus brought. I believe that people confused that message and worshipped the messenger himself. I know that as a Christian you disagree with that. That’s OK. We disagree. That’s why there are different religions in the world. That’s why we adhere to different teachings.
The statement wasn’t disrespectful or dishonorable and you shouldn’t feel personally attacked. It was simply a description of my beliefs. Disagree with them all you’d like.
Good advice: allow other people to express their beliefs without condemning them for doing so.
Good advice: read the posts completely to gain understanding of what this writer is saying before determining that she is somehow trying not to allow other people to express their beliefs without condemning them for doing so. Because that is EXACTLY opposite of what I said.
Great Advice: Don't stir the pot just for the sake of stirring.
Blessings.
Now, now, ladies. . .I think I can safely say that I know you BOTH well enough to honestly believe that NO ONE here is TRYING to offend anyone. . .
I think that it would be obvious to agree that the statement in question DOES outline the quentessential difference between Islam and Christianity. Christians do indeed believe and accept that Jesus is indeed Divine and an object of worship, while Musilims believe that Jesus' MESSAGE was indeed inspired and his teachings WERE from God, but that his followers who attributed claims of Godhood to him were in error.
Again, this distinction is obvious, and the pointing out of the difference is not an attack or anything to get offended over.
Now, having said that, I will only state what I PERSONALLY believe:
Regardless of whether or not Jesus was indeed some incarnation of The Almighty or if he was a prophet or even if he was or was not a historical figure around which a rich mythology grew around, there IS truth that resonates behind the teachings OF Jesus. Thus, there lies the difficulty--as a skeptic, I ask the same questions that Judas Iscariot asks in the musical. . .i KNOW the answers the christian gives, but those answers remain insatisfactory to me, in spite of a desire to beleive them.
Both the Muslim and the Christian beleive that the words of Jesus were the words of God. Of this point, I am inclined to agree. I DO however, lack a significant amount of clarity as to the MODE of that transmission.
Again, I remain non-religious BECAUSE of this lack of clarity. Religion usually involves conviction, and it is conviction to the nature of the person of Jesus, the origins of the Bible, the development of the Church, and the inability that I have to remain satisfied with the answer that I must accept a religious system ON FAITH, but that it is unacceptable for me to live APART from a religious system ON FAITH.
But regardless, I still Love you all!
Anonymous: I apologize if I misunderstood your first comment. I thought you were offended by my quote as you called it disrespectful, dishonorable, and unfair - and as a result I felt sort of attacked.
I was trying to clarify that the quote wasn’t intended to be disrespectful towards Christians or their beliefs in any way. Rather, it was merely describing MY understanding of the Christian belief of the divinity of Jesus(p). If you were offended by it, or by my subsequent comments, please accept my apology. Oh, and my advice was meant with all sincerity - it is something I remind myself of frequently as it is often quite difficult to do.
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